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Oktoberfest: Operation What’s the Point.

Yep, it’s the first part of October. Oktoberfest time.

I had to take photos for the paper, so I went to the park to see what was up. And guess what? Nothing much. Just thousands of people, shoulder to shoulder, drinking. And drinking. And drinking more.

I don’t really have a problem with this; after all, the weather was absolutely great and it was a good time to visit with lots of people in one spot, but… it just looked SILLY. Seeing middle-aged women and men, who I assume were alumni perhaps, spilling beer all over themselves and not noticing just makes you embarrassed. Embarrassed that you are there with these people.

Beer is definitely the main attraction, but I’m confused by this also. I realize that beer is probably one of the cheapest forms of alcohol available. I also realize that it has some historical significance, which I certainly won’t go into here. But, it honestly just tastes like piss most of the time. I’ll drink it, usually in a bar setting where I’m with friends, but that doesn’t mean that I enjoy the taste particularly.

So here’s my thought; maybe it’s the most successful advertising campaign ever created? Somehow, the beer companies have gotten the population to believe that beer TASTES GOOD! Many other varieties of alcohol taste much better, including plain old wine, but I didn’t see a single person drinking a nice blush or zinfandel today. Thus, the beer companies’ marketing has succeeded, fooling all of us into drinking a liquid that both looks and tastes like piss.

Otherwise, today was alright. Nothing spectacular. I was glad to see and hang with some friends that I haven’t seen in a while, but I was also saddened by other things I saw. Enormous amounts of police converge on Hays this weekend, busting parties left and right. The streets are flooded with people, making driving VERY difficult. Everyone has the same intent, to have fun, but not even half succeed I bet. Bad choices are made, expectations are dashed, and depression hits.

So in conclusion, I’m ready for Monday to roll around. The enormous pressure of making Oktoberfest “the best time of the entire year!” is just too much. I’d take an average weekend any day.

P.S. Many pictures coming very soon!


  1. funny how they go after cigarettes for killing people but don’t dare to do anything against alcohol. except for that 18th amendment. which was repealed by the 21st amendment. i freaking hate the 21st amendment.

  2. Yes, they did try to do something about alcohol… Maybe you remember prohibition in your history books? Didn’t work out to well.

    Adam, you crack me up man! Still like your page better than the online leader although you pretty much make that too. Your page should be called the cliff notes for the University Leader. Or online leader for Dummies, with a hint of Adam. Anyways, just being silly. 🙂

  3. 18th amenendment = didn’t work. But, of course I see nothing wrong with “government” dictating what a person should do, after all thats why were Americans, because we are to stupid to make decisions for ourselves, so we need government to do it for us. This is a great idea, because sooner or later, if we get enouph laws passed, everyone will be considered equal, and we will live in a perfect communist society. Of course I don’t know what it’s like to live in a communist society, oh wait, yes I do… I’m in one right now. Gotta love Americans who hate freedom(s).

  4. better yet, gotta love americans who extend the term “freedom” to include every form of immoral behavior, such as the continued availability of a substance that has destroyed more lives and families throughout human history than any illegal drug.

  5. biebs biebs

    hey hey hey … theory communism isnt that bad…. just in practice because there isnt anyone out there that could lead such a society without being corrupted by power, money, and whatever else they could get their grimy little hands on …….

  6. Anything taken in large quantities is bad for you. But, if you want to outlaw alcohol, I think we should outlaw sex. Heck, if we outlaw alcohol, the sex rate would probable go down. I think sex has probably killed more people over the history of mankind than any drug. How many people has AIDS killed due to poeple having sex. Oh, noooooo. No more sex!!! No one can have it. It’s killing people. It not only effects the people having it, but if they have children due to the act, there children may get AIDS or Herpies. OUTLAW SEX!!! It’s a horrible thing. People would also stop having abortions, due to this law. No more sex… No more killing innocent babies!!! What a great idea! What a perfect world.

  7. johny ringo johny ringo

    Theory of communism isn’t bad? There is no theory of communism without corruption. Your post may be aiming more towards socialism.

  8. I’m not talking about the “theory” of communism! I’m talking about communism, there is such a thing, I’m living in a communist state right now, it’s called China. I swear, trying to talk about something real, and all I get is theories.

  9. johny ringo johny ringo

    This is really something…I cant get over it…Theory of communism is’nt bad. What have we come to really? Have we been a free society for such a long time that we forget what freedom is? In a communist society, where is the drive to succeed. China is not a true communist society. They have adopted a economy slanted torwards capitalism. However Cuba….yeah they communistic theory has served them well. Ask any of the cubans that are making boats out of ford pickup trucks surrounded by old oil barrels. Ask them how wonderful of a theory communism is. Ask the North Korean’s how much they love communism. They dont have the luxury of building boats or swimming accross the pacific. They are just thrilled that the government is absorbing every bit of the aid that is given to help battle starvation. But the government knows best.. Ask any of the soviets that had family farms torn from them because the “government” new best what was good for them. How many of us like to be told what to believe, what to think, and what not to think. Lets just line up in soup kitchens with the rest of the population because we are so thrilled that we are working our ass off to be just as wealthy as the man we are providing the food for. I do believe you are studying in a field you choose, so that you can better yourself. The United States of America is not telling you what you have to study, so that you can benifit the United States of America. It’s truly sad and revolting an American would post such a comment. It may have been posted lightheartedly and without much thought, but I take such matters as my freedom very serious.

  10. Not, only is there one of us but there are several as a part that make up a compilation of beings making us all seperate but equal based on the theory that we were all created to be different. This can be pointed out in the many countries of the world who have stouped to the level of satan himself and revocted even the right to worship satan, if you so there believe in such a being. Not only is good outlawed in such a society but bad, and humans are looked at as obidient beigns ruled by not God, but by government itself as run by one person somewhere down the long line of indubidable crazies who come out of the cracks every now and then. In short, I love the USA, and I will always stay patriotic for the fact that I am free untill some crazy person gets the idea to outlaw freedom, because he is smarter than all the rest. The only thing he has to show for himself is a webpage with some comics on it and has shown no sort of bravery and has not fought for any freedom that he has so fully taken advantage of, by just writing want he wants on this page. Peace Out, and word up!!!

  11. Lucid Dream Lucid Dream

    What about monarchy. No body talks about monarchy anymore. Monarchy can beat Communism’s ass until it is red. Wait…It is already red.. What about the vatican. They’ve got something that works there. Dont really know what it is, but it works.

  12. Amen to all of the above, except for any with a period in the first sentence. Those, I can’t agree with any more than I can agree that I am a man. So take it with an open heart and a closed mind, the next time you decide to bad mouth the one who gave you an life in the first place. I will not listen to those of you who bad mouth God. He will have his vengance agains you, only if he so well pleases, since I have no control over that process. But I will talk to someone who knows the channels and knows people. Trust me.. I will!!!

  13. i’d totally be for outlawing the misuse of sex outside of marriage. it would obliterate AIDS. massively lower the divorce rate, and abortion too. people would actually have to have long-lasting meaningful relationships, instead of just being a bunch of jerks out to use people. the jerks.

    and the goverment most certainly should tell people what to do. that’s why people form societies with (good) governments to begin with. to protect themselves from the selfish whims of anyone who walks by. laws are put in place that say what can and can not be done for the protection of all. (this is all straight out of rousseau, who was pretty much the basis for the whole american system of government). i think the removal of alcohol from society would serve this end. sure there are people who don’t abuse it, who say that it would be wrong to take away their “right” to drink because of the irresponsibility of other people. but to put it quite bluntly, that’s what i call being a selfish jerk. you could give up some petty little thing like drinking, which you don’t really need, and prevent a lot of injustice and tragedy by doing so. or you can be more concerned with your personal pleasure and “freedom” to give a crap about what effect is has on society as a whole. i hear the same thing from people who are all about supporting abortion: “if you think it’s wrong, then you just don’t have one! but don’t take away my right to do so!” like i’ve previously said, we’ve turned freedom into an excuse for individual selfishness and injustice at the expense of others. that’s not the type of freedom the founders of the country were talking about.

  14. and most certainly yes on that vatican comment. that would rule like nothing else, to have people realize that since laws really are basically just legislated morality (despite the whining of people who go on about how “you can’t legislate morality!!!”), why not let the moral basis of your laws come from the experts? i am fairly well convinced that the moral laws and social teachings of the church, if used as the basis of the laws for a society, would cure a lot of the ills that plague the world. but it shouldn’t just be “because God says so!!!” as you often hear. there should be thoughtful explanations about why those laws are in place and why it is of benefit for everyone to follow those laws. maybe not even as laws if that gets too complicated, but just embedded in the culture as ideas of what is and is not acceptable (because immorality just isn’t looked down upon nearly enough these days).

    and before you freak out about freedom of religion being threatened, it should be noted that the catholic church fully supports freedom of religion (along with just about everything else out of the original framework for american government).

    monarchy is fun to look at with all it’s fancy romanticism, but when it goes bad, it goes REALLY bad, so it’s probably out.

  15. and sex and alcohol being compared in the first place??? sex is a necessity for continuing the human race. whereas as alcohol serves no useful function and, when examined objectively, is really no different than any of the countless drugs which have laws against them. which is exactly why people are so defensive of it; it’s one of the few drugs they can still legally get their hands on.

    and i thoroughly understand the disappointment with my artwork. i am quite often never really satisfied with it myself. i am hoping to get some formal training in the next few semesters so that i can go beyond my petty attempts at relying on my natural inadequate abilities. i also perfectly understand how the fact that i have not served in the military invalidates my viewpoints on the ways in which american society can be improved to better promote justice and real freedom for all.

  16. Ross Ross

    I’m just still waiting for Adam to post some kick butt photos so I can smile soon! 😀

  17. Hey, I’m not even going to read the rest of your message. This is all I read… “i’d totally be for outlawing the misuse of sex outside of marriage.” I said, outlaw sex, with no mention of any exceptions. Just you saying that makes you sound stupid enouph. Do you have any idea how unconstitutional that would be. Thank God, people like you don’t get in office. Outlaw sex outside of marriage!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!! Are you absolutly serious? You would be for it. Hey, listen go to church and follow your churches rules. There is a reason for seperation of Church and State. I understand you want everyone to live your Christian lifestyle, and you would be willing to make some of these ideas laws, there by putting people in prison for not believing what you believe in. So like I was saying before, go to your church and be sentenced by there rules. Government is thankfully not run by the Church. Only an absolute idiot, that knows nothing about history would want that. What a “Typical American”! To not even consider how many people sex has killed inside of a wed relationship. Look at Africa. Most the people dieing from AIDS in Africa are married. Why don’t you learn to accept some responsibility for yourself, for the things you can’t control, like your drinking, and your sex habits. It’s all about responsibility, and thankfully most Americans are, it’s just the stupid ones you hear about. Listen, I understand someone in your family was probably a drunk, and probably beat the crap out of you. You can’t expect that to constitute everyone elses rights to be taken away because of someone stupid. You may want to look at the statistics for how many people do drink in a day and don’t get drunk, or don’t do anything stupid. I can’t believe it. I don’t know how you could get any more liberal democrat. Don’t worry I still like you as a human being. I just really think you have lost any point you had. It’s like playing chess and you made a wrong move and lost. You could have kept in the game by making another move, but you didn’t. Never compomise, unless you are being sarcastic like I was being.

  18. you’re totally going from the modern namby pamby hollywood/MTV/pop culture definition of freedom, which is a complete corruption of the entire concept. lifestyle, license for immorality, and the pursuit of pleasure. it’s the childish idea that no one should be allowed to tell you what you can and can not do, and all rules are bad, which we all went through at some point (including myself). it’s an idea that rips apart the entire idea of the social contract on which democracy is based, and turns everyone into a collection of isolated individuals only concerned with their own lifestyle, at whatever cost. in other words, anarchy. you have the freedom to do anything you want, but anyone has the freedom to do whatever they want back to you. you want to murder? okay, but you now have no protection from being murdered. you want to steal? granted, but now you have no property rights. you want to engage in recreational alcohol use? there you go, but now you run the risk of having yourself or someone close to you suffer the effects of alcohol abuse or be killed by a drunk driver. you want to throw out the traditional moral teachings on sexuality? have fun with your diseases, divorce rate (assuming you bother to get married to begin with), unwanted pregnancies, abortions, etc. or you could give all those up, and in return gain greater freedoms. pure rousseau. the foundation of democratic free societies, not the new goofy ideas that people are pulling out of nowhere.

    i brought up an exception to the sex issue, because you’re version was irrational and was not a logical analogy to the situation with alcohol. sex has to exist (preferably with conditions for it’s proper use) in order for humanity to continue. alcohol can be unconditionally banned without restrictions, and the human race will still be around, with no ill effects. the only reason people would die from aids within a marriage relationship is because somewhere back down the line prior to their marriage one or both were engaging in illicit sexual or drug practices (unless it was because of one of the much less common causes like contaminated blood transfusion or they were born with it, in which case they have a duty to abstain from sexual contact). and sex outside of marriage was at one point very much looked down upon in society. there are still anti-adultery laws around that are, sadly, not properly enforced (if they were, what’s his name sports star jerk would be going to prison regardless whether or not it was consensual.) the original women’s right movement wanted to see an end to the double standard and have men held to the same rules of sexual behavior that women were held to. instead, we just took the easy way out and lowered the standards for everyone.

    separation of church and state is not an actual part of the constitution. it is a political theory that has been horribly twisted beyond its original meaning. if you study any other culture from any point in the history of the world, you will find that religion (or multiple religions, in the case of most asian nations) always played a major role in shaping the laws of every society, including our own. the modern obsession with tearing down traditional morals because of their interference with the twisted false freedom everyone is demanding is not the intent behind separation of church and state. it’s turned into “freedom from religion” rather than “freedom of religion”. i would like to see everyone be allowed to bring their religious beliefs to any discussion, to see monuments to every religion built, and see the best of every religion reflected in the laws of the country (most of them have cooler artwork anyway, not the same old euro-christian art you see everywhere). religious teachings and ideas should never be excluded from society. they’re social teachings are no different from secular teachings, other than the fact that they may reference some supernatural source (which many secular righters also do… constitution? declaration of independence? burmese democratic movement?)

    liberal democrat? the liberal democrats are the ones who want to legalize everything, including recreational drug use (which i once again must emphasize alcohol falls under). they’re the ones behind the twisting of the idea of freedom that i keep talking about.

    and christian lifestyle? christianity does not adequately speak out against alcohol. no single religion gets anything completely right, at least not in practice. christianity does speak out against illegal drugs, such as the usual cocaine, marijuana, heroin etc, the same category of recreational drugs that alcohol and tobacco fall into, but for some reason that i can’t comprehend, treats them more lightly. buddhism is a significantly more enlightened in its views regarding alcohol, as is islam. and then there’s the people themselves who are against alcohol. i’ve got 1991 nobel peace prize winner aung san suu kyi and mahatma gandhi on the anti-alcohol side. i would be curious to know what manner of people are for alcohol, other than the usual partying college students, organized crime, and depression era bootleggers.

    accept responsibility for my own drinking and sex habits? you mean like the way i have never touched alcohol or engaged in any sort of illicit sexual relationship? yeah, i’m doing pretty good. and i would like to share with that other people. i don’t believe in the “it’s not my problem” philosophy. everyone has a duty to fight against injustice wherever they find it, regardless of whether or not it affects them personally. i’m totally all for the iraqi freedom thing, not because of any nuclear weapons or terrorist connections, but simply because the people were being forced to live in fear of a tyrant who was making their lives miserable (although i’m not necessarily sure that trying to force an american style democracy on a nation with a radically different cultural history is a good idea).

    no drunks in my family, no “beating.” but it happens to other people, and that bothers me. and i’m willing to speak out against it, even though it’s an immensely unpopular viewpoint. much like slavery often was. or the early stages of the civil rights movement. or abortion.

    prohibition didn’t work, but it could have. it was enacted during one of the most unstable periods in american history. the agents who were supposed to enforce it were horribly underpaid and prone to taking bribes to look the other way. i think it could work now, especially when you look at the reasonably successful campaign against the tobacco industry. not to mention the fact that most other drugs that are now illegal were at one point permitted. it’s definitely a cause i see worth keeping up.

    and i’m willing to do so through explanation of my points and ideas, rather than through various personal attacks, illogical categorizations, and a failure to even look at the opposition’s arguments.

  19. adam, you need to write more entries about random minor holidays founded by bavarian princes. i think this one’s had the most interesting commentary on it ever. not only have i gotten to understand other people’s point of view on what i feel is an important issue, but i’ve been able to better understand my own view on it.

    with that, there’s just a couple of last things that popped into my head (gugh, i almost typed that as “pooped into my head”) and then i will (probably) be done.

    i think the major difference here is the starting premise on the definition of what freedom is.

    there’s the view that freedom should be a neutral term concerned primarily with self interest and “lifestyle choices,” regardless of whether or not those choices have a constructive or destructive effect on the individual, others, and society. this would work in a perfect world. in fact, i’d say that a lot of people who hold to this view typically believe the world is as good as it’s going to get, and just complacently accept the problems. there’s little in the way of suggesting any solutions to anything.

    i say freedom should always be a positive force concerned with promoting justice and the improvement of the world. things like drug use and the removal of sexual ethics do not do this. i see the world as not being perfect, and that people should do something about it. will this view ever make the world perfect. no, but it has the potential to actually achieve some progress.

    sex has positive effects when used properly. it has negative effects when used improperly. the same can be said of an issue like gun control: guns can be used properly and positively to protect justice and freedom (apprehending a criminal, legitimate self-defense). they also have extreme negative consequences when used improperly. in both cases, there should be attempts to promote the positive use and prevent the negative use.

    alcohol, though is in a different category. it has negative effects even when used “properly” (strain on the liver, increased risk of cancer, and clouding of intellect and will – the two human qualities which are the very origin of freedom), and these effects are amplified when it is taken to excess. this is why i say that the use of ANY amount of alcohol is an abuse, just as the use of any amount of an illegal drug like heroin is an abuse. you could say that alcohol’s effects aren’t as extreme as those of heroin, and that it is therefore “not as bad.” but “not as bad” is still bad. it’s like saying cutting off your finger isn’t as bad as cutting off your whole hand.

    like i disagreed about your historical interpretation of prohibition, i have to disagree with your interpretation of religion and government mingling. it seemed to suit europe quite well for a good thousand years after the collapse of the roman empire (which also mingled religion and government throughout its history). buddhism did a decent job of providing some sense of unity in nations that contained huge numbers of ethnic groups that often were at each others throats. islam probably did something similar somewhere, i haven’t gotten into it’s history quite as much. sure, there were abuses then and now associated with religion, but they weren’t any worse than the type of abuses you saw in the anti-religion soviet union and similar nations. in a lot of cases, it was the teachings of religion that laid out the rights of humanity, even if they weren’t always properly put into practice. to say that religion has had an overall harmful effect on humanity is totally off. there’s a book i read a review of. the author’s an atheist who attacks the modern churches for giving in to societal pressure and giving up their role of speaking out against injustice. i need to find a copy of it.

    i’m still baffled by the liberal democrat thing. liberal democrats are typically against bringing back sexual ethics, ending abortion, allowing religious ideas to be discussed openly, and keeping illegal drugs illegal. i think all the views i’ve expressed are about as conservative as you can get. and my stance on alcohol probably makes me more conservative than most conservatives. as in conservative republican? no, they’ve gotten a little to lenient on some issues, and i can’t say i’m entirely behind all of their views on business and economy, not to mention their inadequate support for the whole research into better, cleaner, more efficient fuels thing. it’s like i said about religion; take the best of all different views and put them together.

  20. Yeah, this topic definitely goes down in the record books for most comments. Who said my site isn’t educational?

    I’m going to throw something into the ring though. When talking about alcohol’s primary purpose being “negative,” couldn’t the same be said about chocolate or fatty foods? Certainly there is no benefits coming from them, besides what some would define as “pleasure.” I see certain similarities between them, although I’m sure I’m find a hole in my logic eventually.

  21. food is another one of those necessary things like sexuality. as for the content of the food… i can kind of see where you’re going. you’ve got people screwing themselves up from obesity and what not. but remember that you need some amount of fat in your diet. i’ve seen chocolate included in old military ration kits (although it’s kind of low grade industrial chocolate) along with some kind of weird looking hard candy, because of whatever necessary nutrient it can pump out in large supply. and back in the old days, you wanted as much fat in your food as you could get, because it provided stored nutrients for the stretches when nothing was availabe. you don’t need alcohol in your diet. when used in reasonable amounts, you can work fat off and balance it out through exercise. you can’t work off the liver strain and increased risk of cancer from the use of alcohol that results from allegedly reasonable amounts, and you really can’t do anything to balance out it’s effect on your mental processes. so yeah, i’d say fatty foods go in the “good when used properly, bad when used improperly” category. and i think the topic “harmful pleasure vs. harmless pleasure” and whether or not alcohol or other drugs provide any sort of genuine legitimate pleasure would be one to debate. it’s totally different from the pleasure of fine food, enjoyment of the arts, sports activities, etc.

    and whoop, i left out a point i meant to bring up (i need to use that preview button). laws governing the misuse of sexuality are not unconstitutional. we’ve got laws against prostitution (although there are people trying to legalize it), laws against rape (although the court system often screws up convictions because of “lack of evidence”), laws against adultery (which are unfortunately no longer enforced), laws against pedophilia (although there really are crazy people out there who claim it can be healthy for children and want to legalize it), and there’s the whole current debate about whether or not homosexual marriages should be legally recognized.

    so i don’t think my suggestion was as insane as it was made out to be.

    i would also like for it be noted that i have not used any sort of “because God says so” or “because its in the bible” arguments. i pointed out social effects and consequences, and comparisons with other issues. God-arguments would be of little use to me, because my theories about the nature of God are absolutely insane and unlike anything the world has ever seen, and would probably be condemned by every major religion on the face of the earth on the basis of being “really freaking weird”. but that doesn’t stop me from appreciating the social teachings that various religions have to offer.

  22. Ross Ross

    I think if Yang and Larry would actually look at the similarities they have in their disagreements, they might be on to something. Yang brings up good social points in a calm, orderly fashion, and Larry, you have good ideas, but need to organize your thoughts. You two would be dangerous together (even if you weren’t fighting)!

  23. Well, on the subject of alcohol not being needed, I have read a few studies saying that a glass of wine every so often can help the heart. However, I do see your points, and anyways, I’m not sure beer has been linked to heart-health.

  24. yeah, the heart-health was one i was waiting for to be brought up. i figure it’s like this: it helps your heart, but is completely outweighed by the expense taken on everything else in your body. it’s like steroid use; it’s great for your muscle growth, but not so good for your bizarre hormone imbalances which result in some really freaky stuff. most real medical drugs have side effects like drowsiness or mild dehydration, not increased risk of cancer and liver damage. i’m thinking there’s much better ways to improve the health of your heart, like simple exercise. now a worthwhile study would be for scientists to take alcohol (or marijuana, as there has been some talk about it also having possible medical uses) and figure out exactly why it helps the heart, and find a way to create a new medicinal drug with the same properties, but without the damaging effects. i’m all for controlled medicinal drug use to correct a problem in the body. like alcohol as a disinfectant (but very important fact of the day to tell any children who like to get into the medicine-cabinet: rubbing alcohol is not the same as the alcohol people drink. if you don’t believe me, go drink a bottle of isopropyl alcohol, then have a seat and read the warning label while you wait for your digestive tract to explode into delicious, rich, meaty chunks).

  25. Hey Ross and Adam nice to hear from you guys, especially you Ross. You must tell me how things are going. Ross, about putting my thoughts together… Well, if you noticed my last couple if not more comments made no sence at all, I was just having some fun with sentences, to see how much I could upset people, without really saying anything. Which if you read my last couple of comments, they really didn’t amount to anything, I was just wanting to see how far yang wanted to take the argument. The comments don’t even mean anything to me when I read it. I do think it sounds like some pretty good nonsence if you read it outloud. Actually, some friends here in China were reading it and we were all lauphing really hard at how much nonsence it was. I still lauph at them they are just funny to me. Well, later, and good points Adam, you are truly a good thinker.

  26. i wanted to take it all the way from the moment it came up. i always follow through to the end conclusion. and i think i did a pretty good job of doing so. maybe too good a job, that’s a heck of a lot of text to go through.

    but you know what’s awesome and makes it especially worth it? we just got assigned a paper today where we pick a topic dealing with justice and freedom, so i’m totally copying and pasting this, cleaning it up, and adding in some more supporting quotes from martin luther king jr (dealing with just and unjust law), rousseau (on freedom), and probably thoreau (even if he is a little bit of an anarchist, he’s got some stuff on complaceny towards injustice). i’ve practically got the whole thing done already. it’ll be even better then my last paper where i said that the ideologies of rousseau and thomas jefferson could be twisted to become the basis of a totalitarian state.

  27. and i didn’t think you’re arguments sounded like nonsense. they sounded exactly the same as arguments i have heard from people who genuinely are arguing against my viewpoint. which might say something.

  28. hello hello

    anybody got any real info about oktoberfest? you know- why its STILL celebrated etc….

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